Task Discussion

Dillon Ross June 10, 2011, 2:43 a.m.

late to the game but I just want to echo some of the thoughts I've heard in comments throughout. I see this course as entry level to Javascript. I venture that it is a safe assumption that those who come to P2PU and this course aren't doing it to meet graduation requirements and as such are interested in going deeper. This course while being entry level can point the way to next steps. As a base I think Basics of the Language (variables, loops, operators etc.) The kind of stuff in the What is Javascript portion. I believe it should go as far as some DOM traversing and manipulation and some events. It should then point to way to further learning (another course) by briefly introducing Objects, MVC ideas, Ajax. Because its sexy I know people want to know about the latest frameworks etc and we should give a nod to them but keep focus on "barebones" Javascript.

Clear as mud i'm sure ;-)
jandrocamus May 30, 2011, 1:45 p.m.

Hi, Personally I think the course was too much for begginers.

Currently I'm also taking a "HTML & CSS From the Beggining" course here at p2pu.

I'm really enjoying the course. M first thought was that the course was going to be terribly slow. The contents seemed just too easy. But actually I had just enough time to finish the simple activities.

The course contents are at:

http://p2pu.org/webcraft/node/17019/document

I think Jamie (the course facilitator), has a great approach on how to give this kind of courses.

The activities are childlike, but they sure are fun to do. The course might be seen as too slow, but I think many of us have other activities to do, and can't dedicate that much time to a course.

So maybe a slow course is the way to go; both for learning with small but firm steps, and because of the time available.

Cheers!
Pippa Buchanan May 29, 2011, 10:53 a.m.
This is such a great discussion and I'm really glad to see it happening. I need to read through this a couple more times in detail though!

A Map for Learning Javascript / Web Development in general

School of Webcraft love the Kahn Academy maps and they tie in well with working towards badges.

This would be AMAZING. We've attempted to do this in the past, but we hadn't worked out how to really make it work and to involve other people in the creation process.

If you'd like to start creating a map for this group (and learning Javascript in general) I've created a Cacoo page for this. If we can get a really good map created using this tool we will happily work towards making a way of incorporating such a diagram within the P2PU site context.

Another related idea - make the group like a Choose Your Own Adventure process through the tasks

Amend the title of "What is Javascript" to "Start Here: What is Javascript" and at the end of that task under a heading "Where Next?". Under this heading you'd have a series of options eg:
Where Next?

To learn more about how you'll be able to use Javascript for web development, visit the task How Developers Use Javascript.

To learn more about how to use the language work through "The Javascript Syntax - a Grammar for the Language"

To work through a practical exercise visit "Practical Exercise 1"

Have you got an idea for another task that's useful at this stage? Create a new task and link to it from this list.
P2PU site / user interface suggestions

Please create accounts for our tracker and create tasks and bugs. It's the best way to get ideas for features such as polls etc on the radar.

There are improvements scheduled for organising tasks which should make things much easier. I suggest modifying and expanding the How To Participate task to act as a study guide - task organiser for now.

Courses v Study Groups

P2PU is revising the format so that you can create any type of project - a more formal course, open groups etc and to make this clearer to both organisers and users. Features have also been added allowing people to replicate group content (branching so to speak) and develop their own versions of tasks etc.

If you want to recommend a weekly plan - please do so - but just make sure that it's clear to all new participants. You might also want to let people know that they can branch this and run it as a more organised course if they want.
Todd Hayes May 25, 2011, 3:54 p.m.

Just a suggestion for the completely noviced:

The Eloquent Javascript link is a GREAT source for beginners. The browser console is perfect for writing code into without having to install anything to test/run your sample codes. The pages are set up so that the samples in the pages can be thrown into the console and run with just a click.

Samples are great, and the author takes the time to show many methods of the same ideas. This is a good place to start.
Anonym May 24, 2011, 6:56 p.m.

Copy of Post by Andre Dublin from Wall to this Task for Discussion

"Should we cover ajax and json in this group? Even though modern ajax today will have programmers probably interact with a server side language, I still need to learn me some XML, and json kinda goes hand in hand with ajax...thoughts?"
Anonym May 24, 2011, 8:01 p.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 24, 2011, 6:56 p.m.

We should definitely cover XMLHttpRequest for its support of any text based format, not only XML.

In browser terms, JSON is probably the most appropriate (XML is probably good for more complex data requirements).

I'm quite interested myself to look at this in synch with Node.

Maybe some others would like to comment (Shane?).

Anyway I leave it to you to set up an appropriate Task or Tasks to address this.
Todd Hayes May 26, 2011, 9:44 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 24, 2011, 8:01 p.m.

I am definitely interested in learning AJAX, JSON and XML. Isn't that how most Javascript is being used right now in the really "swank" websites and applications?

Maybe open another Task and name it: "AJAX with JSON/XML"?
Anonym May 22, 2011, 11:20 a.m.

I am really liking the idea of having a lot of sample code, one thing I was thinking that could work well is to put up samples on JSFiddle or JSBin so that people could look at the code, modify, experiment, and learn rapidly. Perhaps this would be a good framework to use to do exercises as well.
Todd Hayes May 23, 2011, 9:44 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 22, 2011, 11:20 a.m.

I like that idea, Shane. We can then make a collection and refer to that coolection by the type of code or what that code does.

It can be a "recipe book" of sorts.
Todd Hayes May 19, 2011, 9:24 a.m.

I think for this course, key for the absolute beginner would be:

A reference that is easy enough to comb through. Reinforcing the idea that the reference material should be open and goes hand-in-hand with any videos/main material. I find that many times, people want to learn so quickly that they forget what level of knowledge they are at and become quickly frustrated. So, having the reference open and usable all the time helps the uninitiaed a lot.

Sample code, and lots of it! Using multiple examples of usable code helps in seeing real use, especially for the beginner. It can be tweaked, and it can spur some to write new code. If anyone knows of a huge base of code that can be referred to, that would go a long way.
Anonym May 19, 2011, 10:23 a.m.
In Reply To: Todd Hayes May 19, 2011, 9:24 a.m.

Like this? https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Guide
Parag May 19, 2011, 10:35 a.m.
In Reply To: Todd Hayes May 19, 2011, 9:24 a.m.

That's a nice thought. We probably need a Map like the one used by KhanAcademy for Math and Science.
Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 10:57 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 19, 2011, 10:23 a.m.

Yes, like this!!

Is there a way we can create an itemized/categorized list in the submenu to the left of resources? Sort of like:

Code Tools:

~~~~~~

~~~~~~

Online references:

~~~~~~

~~~~~~

jQuery and Javascript:

~~~~~~

~~~~~~

etc.
Anonym May 20, 2011, 2:01 p.m.
In Reply To: Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 10:57 a.m.

I placed the other day a suggestion to have drag and drop tasks and tasks within tasks using the "feedback" button on the left of the screen.

You could put up a similar suggestion for Links if you think that is a good idea.

The best way to get these suggestions actually implemented (assuming there is no willing devs in the house) would be if people used the feedback button and made/voted for suggestions.

However, I wouldn't hold my breath, the poll I put up 24 hours ago still has only 1 (yes) vote, wasn't you was it?

By the way, the link called "Mozilla Javascript" in the left hand menu is the parent of the link that you liked as well as many others.
Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 2:32 p.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 20, 2011, 2:01 p.m.

I saw your note about the one vote and voted myself. There should be two votes, at least.
Anonym May 20, 2011, 2:41 p.m.
In Reply To: Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 2:32 p.m.

When I take a look at the results it just shows 1 (yes) vote and that's it.

Maybe I should use some other polling site (since we haven't got polls in here yet).
Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 2:43 p.m.
In Reply To: Parag May 19, 2011, 10:35 a.m.

I like the format that Khan Academy uses a lot. I wonder if we could emulate that format?
Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 2:55 p.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 20, 2011, 2:41 p.m.

I'll help look for some free polling sites...
Anonym May 20, 2011, 3:05 p.m.
In Reply To: Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 2:43 p.m.

I don't know which aspect of the KA web site you are referring to exactly but if you are looking to change the whole site paradigm completely then it is definitely no use discussing that in here.

There are a couple of places that you could do it, the Google Community Group or the Weekly Community Call for instance; I'm not sure you would get very far because the current set up is a fork of a Mozilla project, one of p2pu's sponsors.

So yes to possible tweaks of the existing paradigm (collaborative Tasks) but I wouldn't think so if you are looking to do much more than that. Also remember this is a major shift in paradigm from p2pu that is only just now being transitioned, old.p2pu (based on a Drupal CMS) is still alive (although not for very long).
Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 4:11 p.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 20, 2011, 3:05 p.m.

We were referring to the part that tracks your deveopment. The part that highlights which portions of the subject you have tested proficiently with.

I think about it now and I know we won't be able to do it, but it's a good idea.
Anonym May 20, 2011, 6:12 p.m.
In Reply To: Todd Hayes May 20, 2011, 4:11 p.m.

Something like that might indeed be possible.

At the moment, this tracking only occurs via the badge process which is also a beta.

For js specifically, apart from the other badges, there are just two, the basic and expert js badges.

However it is by no means clear that the structure that is there now is the right one and maybe it should be changed so as to measure progress in more, smaller steps.

As things are if you can reach the "DOM and Events" task and finish that, then you probably know enough js to get the Basic Badge.
Anonym May 19, 2011, 8:19 a.m.

Reading over the comments about what both Maya and Parag have said, I think you are both touching on subjects I have been thinking about here too.

One of the problems I am really seeing is the contradiction between a wiki-style "anybody can participate/suggest ideas/give direction", those who yet do not have the knowledge to even know where to start, and organizer types who really want to do their best to help create the best, most informative, and easy to follow study group possible.

Maya, you are doing a great job here, and I want to help you out as much as possible to get things going.

Parag, you taught the "101" style course last period and would have some great insights to where students really strugged, and also to what they liked and found easy. I think you could impart a lot of knowledge onto those of us who have never been part of organizing an online course/study group.

What I am thinking is the tasks need organized in such a way as a newcomer of any level can come in and ask themselves "OK, where do I start?" and off they go to some task that helps them decide whether they are a complete novice to programming, somebody who knows a bit of DOM/CSS and wants to learn how to use JS to do some work, whether they are somebody who is starting to get into large scale app development, or whether they are a guru and should be teaching us all a few things. But, the idea is that we have tasks that can help any of these users, but they need to know where to start, which tasks will be most applicable to their situation, and what their immediate, intermediate and long term goals are. Immediate goals being "what can I learn now?", intermediate being "what follows from this?", and long term being "what do I need to do to get a badge or reach a certain level of achievement to say that I've done something."
Parag May 19, 2011, 10:40 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 19, 2011, 8:19 a.m.

@Shane One thing that I am noticing is : a new learner is a bit overwhelmed by the vastness and complexity of any technology they need to learn. I am not yet totally sure of this, but most new learners want the initial hand holding along with simple and clear resources to learn from.

I think need help in getting to a point where they can start making sense of the landscape and subsequently take charge of their learning.

Advanced learners on the other hand need "under the hoods", and "best practices" type of knowledge.

I could be wrong, but these are things I have noticed many times, including the way in which I approach my own learning.
Anonym May 18, 2011, 9:39 a.m.

Some familiarity with basic programming ideas is really rather necessary to learn Javascript.

MIT have quite a decent intro course:-

http://academicearth.org/courses/introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming

If you want to get a quick feel for things (or possibly decide that you will never make a programmer), Lectures 1 to 4 and 13 to 16 would probably be good ones to do.
Anonym May 15, 2011, 6:02 a.m.

Perhaps people have not noticed that the Study Group has been reopened for applications.

That means there are a whole set of new people (some of whom are participants) wanting to learn some Javascript.

I have initially pointed everyone to the "What is Javascript" Task or the "Intro for Followers" Task.

It would be good to have some feedback on this, so far no-one has said anything about it.
Anonym May 15, 2011, 5:23 a.m.

Comment from Adaptives in Week2 Task thread

Having taught as well as learnt online, I have some thoughts:

Facilitating: When we are teaching/facilitating, we are very excited and eager to help the participants of the course learn as much as they possibly can in the duration. This is most likely because we are using that technology/language in production and see all the possibilities, corner cases, caveats, etc, and we want to share all of this with the participants.

However

Learning: When we are learning, we are looking at initial hand holding. So if I am learning a new language, I know there are lot's of resources on the Internet, but I don't know where to begin. I don't what I should learn first. I don't know what kind of programming exercises I should do first. I need feedback on the code I am writing, and on the interpretations I am making of the technology in my mind. This is where a facilitator/mentor/teacher can help.

Course Content:

About the course content, I agree that we need to understand the needs of a first time learner. I too made a similar error when I taught Javascript last semester. I was so excited about sharing as much as I could, that I did not realize that what I am offering may not be what a learner needs at this stage.

Suggestions:

First of all Selfstudier, please excuse me for making suggestions in your course... my intention is not to make you change direction or restructure things... but rather I want to share my experience, having been on both sides of the table.

What I am writing below are just just suggestions... I would still look up to you for the final call.

Let us restructure the course so that we are focusing only on fundamental concepts. I know we have progressed well ahead in this course, but that is fine. The JQuery book has a very good introduction to Javascript. here http://jqfundamentals.com/book/#chapter-2

Selfstudier, is it alright if everyone spends some time revisiting earlier concepts? It would be wonderful if everyone can post on the forums... not only questions but also your thought process, the assumptions and interpretations you are making, whatever doubts/questions some to your mind...

Those who are already comfortable with this material can perhaps help by answering questions in the forum?

Once we complete the basics, we should get back to understanding methods, scoping, closures, etc...

So I guess things would be somewhat like this:

Week 3 - Revisiting fundamental concepts

Week 4 - Functions, scope, closures

Week 5 & 6 - Manipulating the DOM

Selfstudier has posted some excellent resources to help a learner go beyond the basic concepts. How about doing this... those who feel they can proceed at a faster pace can learn from those resources as well.

Would like to know everyone's thoughts?
Anonym May 15, 2011, 5:55 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 15, 2011, 5:23 a.m.

Thanks Parag, for your useful thoughts.

I will just make some comments at this stage.

1) As I understand the new set up (new.p2pu), the idea of "courses" (a programme of study according to a timetable) is deemphasized in favour of a p2p (cooperative study in a more free form manner without a fixed timetable).

For reasons I and others have already given (inability for various reasons to stick with a timetable and subsequent dropping out), I tend to agree with this, although I see nothing wrong with providing an indication to people how long (in hours) they might expect to spend on a given set of materials.

So we should, I think, no longer speak of "Weeks".

2) Once again, under the new setup, I think it is not correct to make reference to "my course" (which in fact does not now exist as originally conceived).

The materials, all free and open, are for the benefit of all, be they organizer (not the same as teacher), participant or follower.

Its our course.

3) ".... is it alright if everyone spends some time revisiting earlier concepts? It would be wonderful if everyone can post on the forums... not only questions but also your thought process, the assumptions and interpretations you are making, whatever doubts/questions some to your mind...

Those who are already comfortable with this material can perhaps help by answering questions in the forum?"

I think this is actually the best way forward.

4) We have not addressed yet the differing "qualifications" of participants/followers. I mean this in two senses, what is expected of a participant/follower (or organizer) and also in terms of what those people already know.

I think there is very likely not a "one size fits all" course of study and it needs to be split up (as Tasks) in some manner (possibly but not necessarily along the lines of a 101, 201, 301) and then participants and followers can dip into the Tasks according to some scheme that they can discuss with organizers or other participants.

(Here I am assuming that "followers" are not going to make any sort of contribution).

5) Lastly, if anyone has specific ideas as to what the Tasks ought to be, then I think they should put them up (things are not set in stone, Tasks can be put up, taken down, amended, reworked according to need.

So Parag, it would be good if you can put up your suggested "Week3" as a Task, "Revisiting Fundamentals" or similar and specify it's purpose and content as well as the target audience.

Anonym May 14, 2011, 1:32 p.m.

oreillyschool

Course:	JavaScript 1: Introduction to JavaScript
Tuition:	$298.5
Time Frame:	Due to our monthly lab fee system, this course is completely self-paced. You can expect to work approximately 40 hours on this course.
Technical Requirements:	As long as you have a web browser and internet connection, you can take this course from anywhere in the world.
CEUs:	4 Continuing Education Units with official letter from the University of Illinois Office of Continuing Education.
Software:	The web-based Learning Sandbox^® provided for you will contain all your lessons, projects, quizzes, account files, editors, and rendering tools necessary to build your skills from beginning to end, even beyond coursework. No other software is needed.
Instructor:	You will have one instructor throughout the course who will evaluate your projects and quizzes, hand them back for improvement when necessary, and coach you throughout your skills advancement.
Book:	All required course materials and software are included online within the Learning Sandbox^®. However, within a few weeks of enrolling, you'll receive the free ebook JavaScript: The Definitive Guide, Fifth Edition as a complimentary reference from O'Reilly.
Certificates:	Completion of this course counts toward both the Web Programming Certificate Series and the Client Side Web Programming Certificate Series.
Prerequisites:	Introduction to HTML and CSS, or equivalent solid foundation in HTML and CSS. This course is meant for the beginning or intermediate programmer.
Topics:	Scripting, Objects, Methods, Properties, Variables, DOM, Functions, If Statements, Loops, Object Arrays, Arrays, Nodes, Menus
Syllabus:	Introduction A Definition of JavaScript Differences between Java and JavaScript Recycling JavaScripts Recycling the script Recycling the event Customizing a recycled script Event Handlers onclick onmouseover onmouseout Other event handlers Introduction to Scripting Script tags Basic JavaScript syntax Introduction to methods: The write method Methods and Variables Methods of the window object Introduction to variables: assigning string values Methods Window methods: open and focus methods Document methods: Opening and writing to a document Properties and the Document Object Model Basic DOM syntax DOM hierarchy Document Object Methods: getElementById Basic getElementById syntax Accessing getElementById properties using the style object Assigning getElementById properties using the style object Functions Basic function syntax Writing and calling multiple functions Passing parameters Creating rollovers Operators Arithmetic Operators Assignment Operators Comparison Operators Creating a simple calculator The if Statement if else else if Logical operators Loops For loops While loops Nested loops Object animation Object Arrays Document Object Collections Forms collection Table collections and innerHTML User Defined Arrays Creating your own arrays Two-dimensional arrays Operations with Nodes Creating and manipulating elements Creating and manipulating elements The Childnodes array Creating JavaScript Menus Building the menu with HTML and CSS A Drop-down menu script

Anonym May 14, 2011, 1:28 p.m.

http://www.remwebdevelopment.com/js/syllabus.html (lengthy)
Anonym May 14, 2011, 1:19 p.m.

JavaScript for Web Designers http://www.online-learning.com/course_jsw_outline.html

1. Getting started

2. The need for scripting

3. Hello world

4. JavaScript basics

5. Interacting with the user

6. JavaScript events

7. Working with forms

8. Working with objects

9. Changing HTML with JavaScript

10. Using the DOM

11. JavaScript "recipes"

Highlights
— 6 weeks of one-to-one instructor mentoring
— Chat session
— Expert feedback on all assignments
— Over 200 pages of self-paced readings, interactive exercises and practice quizzes
— Downloadable HTML and PDF version of course materials

Prerequisites
— Working knowledge of English
— Basic knowledge of HTML and CSS
Anonym May 14, 2011, 1:18 p.m.
http://codelesson.com/courses/view/introduction-to-javascript

Introduction to JavaScript

A basic introduction to coding the JavaScript language

Course Outline

In this course, you'll learn the basics of coding front-end Web applications using JavaScript. Topics include:

JavaScript syntax and execution in the browser

Data types, variables and operators

Data type conversion

Arrays and objects

Logical and comparison operators

Conditional statements

Loops

Accessing and traversing the HTML Document Object Model (DOM)

Coding forms; performing client-side validation and feedback

JavaScript image effects

Debugging JavaScript

Prerequisites

Basic PC skills

Basic Web skills

Good understanding of HTML and CSS; ability to code Web pages by hand without the use of a tool.

This is a programming course. It is appropriate for experienced coders as well as those who haven't coded before.

Duration and Format

Four weeks. Taught online. Instructor-led.
Anonym May 14, 2011, 11:25 a.m.

Also it is worth reiterating that at the moment there are 3 choices for participation:

1) Organizer (what I am presently doing alone).

2) Participant (produce Tasks etc per the link I posted earlier)

3) Follower (a consumer, basically).

Of course, if everyone is a follower, there will be nothing new to consume.
Anonym May 14, 2011, 11:10 a.m.

It would be very good if those that have made comments already and those making future comments could at the same time put up concrete Tasks that implement their ideas (ie doing, rather than talking about doing).

One thing I have noticed is the expectation that I (or someone else) is going to do this work.

That's not going to happen, it needs to be a collaborative effort (something like open source software development).

Because the learning is now open-ended as to time, it is unrealistic to expect that one individual will be continuously available to orchestrate things.

Making concrete contributions need not take up a lot of someone's time, particularly if Tasks are divided into manageable pieces.
Anonym May 14, 2011, 11:01 a.m.

Here are extracts of posts made in the Functions Objects and Scope Task thread (see there for full context).

Comments from Krabat

@selfstudier, maybe you could provide the course with practical exercises regarding the above concepts?
(functions, objects, closures, this keyword and object inheritance)
That would be really great and appreciated!

AND

Regarding the tasks: Should I start creating a task here? I can do a simple one for functions...
So how about the other participants? What do you think / like the course to be?

Comment from Adam Fraser

For example I really want to practice my JS but don't really have a project in mind that I could work on so I guess what I'm asking is whats the best way to practice actual JS rather than theory??

Comments from brotherhutch

In a JS book I've been using closures aren't even mentioned until page 338 of a 700 page book. There are many other concepts and coding techniques and much practice to be accomplished in the textbook prior to the kinds of things we encountered in week 2.

yes more coding practice related to theory would help as we go along. And perhaps a gentler curve into these more advanced ideas. Perhaps in future versions of this course a narrower and more focused set of learning resources could be collected. I'd like to see a JS course that really narrows its scope to current best practices, with more coding examples, and practical parsing exercises -- which I think would actually teach theory more efficiently than asking general questions about it.

Comment from selstudier

I have been thinking about it a little bit and it seems to me that prior exposure to programming is now a prerequisite for learning Javascript.

Does a 6 Week course need to be a 12 week course? Or even longer? And cover less material?

Comment from Jandrocamus

It´s a very good thing this course is happening, but besides learning its a very nice idea to be working on how to improve the next javascript courses.
Anonym May 26, 2011, 11:35 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 14, 2011, 11:01 a.m.

I would say that from these comments there is definitely a need for two (I am actually envisioning many more) separate classes, one being a complete beginners course to programming, using Javascript as a basis - as it seems many people know nearly 0 about basic programming techniques and this is an opportunity to help them, and secondly, for those who already know about data types, loops, etc, how to use those but integrate them into basic javascript techniques like closures, currying, DOM, etc. Without the foundation knowledge, it is going ot be nearly impossible for anybody to get up to speed. I think this has always been one of the serious dilemas of this course, defining the audience and limiting the scope.
Anonym May 26, 2011, 1:17 p.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 26, 2011, 11:35 a.m.

A couple already exist in fact, html5/js game and F'fox extensions (there is also an intro programming course that has appeared).

You should remember that the original js course run by adaptives included 2 tracks, 1 for people without programming and that this course did not succeed (it was subsumed into the main track,which also did not succeed), although it is possible that this was simply a function of time pressures on participants, I don't really know.

The old course timetable, syllabus, forum postings and whatnot are all still available for you to have a look at.

When I tried it (in a Google container) and attempted to limit participation to those meeting some prerequisites, this also did not work and I think it was mainly although not solely due to time pressures. I stopped preparing any further materials at this point and we transferred everything over here and switched to "always running" basis (suggestion of Pippa) so as to give people a chance to catch up (some have, most haven't, or apparently haven't).

In fact the 6 weeks that I had originally allocated for the running of the course (as was) are up on the 5 June and I am expecting to substantially scale down my involvement from that point on (I am preparing/organizing another course now on a different subject).

The possibility now exists to fork existing Study Groups (as well as set up new ones), it just isn't going to be me doing it.

Perhaps you or some other participant will take advantage of the facility and perhaps the "Design" group will provide some materials for such new groups.
Pippa Buchanan May 29, 2011, 11:06 a.m.
In Reply To: Anonym May 26, 2011, 1:17 p.m.

@Shane, @Selfstudier,

As I mentioned (at the top of the messages) there's some really great discussion in this group which hopefully we can import to the Working Group. @Shane's got some really great points about scope for the this group.

Perhaps as selfstudier moves to spending more time on his new topic we can identify how to tidy up the content in here as best as possible.